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Franco
Joined: 10 Oct 2019
Posts: 1196
Location: kirkcaldy
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 Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I must add that I was talking to two guys after Saturday's match, who were saying that they had been discussing buying Half Season Tickets but they were both having second thoughts because of the negative atmosphere i ie the booing. ( not the result, the booing ). Still I left them thinking one or both might go ahead and purchase a Half Season Ticket ( full adult ).
But this Fife Today interview will have put them off, for sure, I suspect......and others.The timing could not be worse for selling HSTs.
Neil, you could be right. Players would be talking among themselves about contracts e.g. are no players who are out of contract at the end of the season being approached about extensions? They all will have mortgages/ other financial commitments. |
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Long time fan
Joined: 18 Jan 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Kirkcaldy
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps this whole investment required situation is a timely reminder to all us supporters who might have been looking for us to sign a couple of forwards for the second half of the season in order to kick on and improve our standing.
The current situation team wise is very close to last year in that we need a striker, the difference this year is we haven’t performed as well and have less points.
Unfortunately the actions taken by the then manager and board to improve the team, spectacularly backfired and cost the club a pretty penny from a decent cash flow position (tv money, league money, Tait transfer, Celtic away in the cup).
The fallout in my opinion led to reduced budgets, change of manager and a not so good turn in our current financial position.
Like him or loathe him Mr Sim has continued in the same vein as others such as Turnbull and Mario in keeping the Rovers in business over the past few years, and after the huge circus and amount of criticisms from not just football fans, but media, certain individuals and even government ministers has probably had enough and wishes to take the millstone of Raith Rovers from around his neck. (Please note I wish no offence or to trivialise last years fiasco, I simply wish to state Rovers current position in my post).
Where do we go from here? Investment is sorely required, but at what cost and from whom? We have been down this road before unfortunately and it almost cost us our club.
I look back at last year, I look at Killie paying Lafferty 50k in wages to the end of the season, and he got them promoted! If only it could have been us!!
Fine margins indeed!
I pray we can survive as a club, it won’t be easy in todays difficult financial situation. |
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Strathallan Rover
Joined: 29 Nov 2014
Posts: 651
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Long time fan wrote: | Perhaps this whole investment required situation is a timely reminder to all us supporters who might have been looking for us to sign a couple of forwards for the second half of the season in order to kick on and improve our standing.
The current situation team wise is very close to last year in that we need a striker, the difference this year is we haven’t performed as well and have less points.
Unfortunately the actions taken by the then manager and board to improve the team, spectacularly backfired and cost the club a pretty penny from a decent cash flow position (tv money, league money, Tait transfer, Celtic away in the cup).
The fallout in my opinion led to reduced budgets, change of manager and a not so good turn in our current financial position.
Like him or loathe him Mr Sim has continued in the same vein as others such as Turnbull and Mario in keeping the Rovers in business over the past few years, and after the huge circus and amount of criticisms from not just football fans, but media, certain individuals and even government ministers has probably had enough and wishes to take the millstone of Raith Rovers from around his neck. (Please note I wish no offence or to trivialise last years fiasco, I simply wish to state Rovers current position in my post).
Where do we go from here? Investment is sorely required, but at what cost and from whom? We have been down this road before unfortunately and it almost cost us our club.
I look back at last year, I look at Killie paying Lafferty 50k in wages to the end of the season, and he got them promoted! If only it could have been us!!
Fine margins indeed!
I pray we can survive as a club, it won’t be easy in todays difficult financial situation. |
Excellent post.
The position we find ourselves in is mainly down to a signing policy last season which was out of control. Long term contracts handed out like sweeties to players, who maybe apart from Stanton, have yet to justify these deals. The amount of money that we have wasted, mostly in the forward positions, has been almost criminal. If the cash had been spent better i think we would have won promotion last season.
Personally, i like John Sim as he has at least tried to do something with the club and Stark's Park eg RRFC community club has been a huge success with adults & children using the facilities 7 days a week.
As far as potential investors coming on board, they will need to spend the money required to achieve promotion, it's their only chance of a return for their outlay as being in the Championship will result in annual losses. Very much a case of speculate to possibly accumulate. |
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Gary Parker
Moderator
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1779
Location: About half way between the place I was and the place I intend to be
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Strathallan Rover wrote: | | Long time fan wrote: | Perhaps this whole investment required situation is a timely reminder to all us supporters who might have been looking for us to sign a couple of forwards for the second half of the season in order to kick on and improve our standing.
The current situation team wise is very close to last year in that we need a striker, the difference this year is we haven�t performed as well and have less points.
Unfortunately the actions taken by the then manager and board to improve the team, spectacularly backfired and cost the club a pretty penny from a decent cash flow position (tv money, league money, Tait transfer, Celtic away in the cup).
The fallout in my opinion led to reduced budgets, change of manager and a not so good turn in our current financial position.
Like him or loathe him Mr Sim has continued in the same vein as others such as Turnbull and Mario in keeping the Rovers in business over the past few years, and after the huge circus and amount of criticisms from not just football fans, but media, certain individuals and even government ministers has probably had enough and wishes to take the millstone of Raith Rovers from around his neck. (Please note I wish no offence or to trivialise last years fiasco, I simply wish to state Rovers current position in my post).
Where do we go from here? Investment is sorely required, but at what cost and from whom? We have been down this road before unfortunately and it almost cost us our club.
I look back at last year, I look at Killie paying Lafferty 50k in wages to the end of the season, and he got them promoted! If only it could have been us!!
Fine margins indeed!
I pray we can survive as a club, it won�t be easy in todays difficult financial situation. |
Excellent post.
The position we find ourselves in is mainly down to a signing policy last season which was out of control. Long term contracts handed out like sweeties to players, who maybe apart from Stanton, have yet to justify these deals. The amount of money that we have wasted, mostly in the forward positions, has been almost criminal. If the cash had been spent better i think we would have won promotion last season.
Personally, i like John Sim as he has at least tried to do something with the club and Stark's Park eg RRFC community club has been a huge success with adults & children using the facilities 7 days a week.
As far as potential investors coming on board, they will need to spend the money required to achieve promotion, it's their only chance of a return for their outlay as being in the Championship will result in annual losses. Very much a case of speculate to possibly accumulate. |
Disagree with this last part, break even or profit in the championship is not unattainable if clubs live within their means, the whole speculate to accumulate nonsense is what gets them to this position in the first place.
Every few years we hear "a good cup run will make all the difference" or "if we can sell a player, we'll be ok" its just poor financial planning. We're a small club with a pretty weak (poor) average home attendance, even trying to be full time and competing with larger budgets is always going to put us in a defecit, it has to change.
The amount of money squandered last season is almost criminal, an absolute shocking return on investment from all of those in charge. Financial regulation is needed in football and strict salary caps, with massive penalties against those in charge for breaching them. This whole living on speculation and hope has to stop. |
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TxRover
Joined: 02 Jun 2018
Posts: 3508
Location: North Texas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Parker wrote: | Disagree with this last part, break even or profit in the championship is not unattainable if clubs live within their means, the whole speculate to accumulate nonsense is what gets them to this position in the first place.
Every few years we hear "a good cup run will make all the difference" or "if we can sell a player, we'll be ok" its just poor financial planning. We're a small club with a pretty weak (poor) average home attendance, even trying to be full time and competing with larger budgets is always going to put us in a defecit, it has to change.
The amount of money squandered last season is almost criminal, an absolute shocking return on investment from all of those in charge. Financial regulation is needed in football and strict salary caps, with massive penalties against those in charge for breaching them. This whole living on speculation and hope has to stop. |
A salary cap is the last thing needed/wanted, but regulations that prevented thumbs on the scales by ensuring clubs lived within their means would be reasonable. And, yes, the glory days are gone (and likely not coming back), so we need to build a sustainable model. |
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Long time fan
Joined: 18 Jan 2022
Posts: 79
Location: Kirkcaldy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| TxRover wrote: | | Gary Parker wrote: | Disagree with this last part, break even or profit in the championship is not unattainable if clubs live within their means, the whole speculate to accumulate nonsense is what gets them to this position in the first place.
Every few years we hear "a good cup run will make all the difference" or "if we can sell a player, we'll be ok" its just poor financial planning. We're a small club with a pretty weak (poor) average home attendance, even trying to be full time and competing with larger budgets is always going to put us in a defecit, it has to change.
The amount of money squandered last season is almost criminal, an absolute shocking return on investment from all of those in charge. Financial regulation is needed in football and strict salary caps, with massive penalties against those in charge for breaching them. This whole living on speculation and hope has to stop. |
A salary cap is the last thing needed/wanted, but regulations that prevented thumbs on the scales by ensuring clubs lived within their means would be reasonable. And, yes, the glory days are gone (and likely not coming back), so we need to build a sustainable model. |
Reading between the lines of the articles attributed to the owner and the chairman, the capital costs associated with required ground maintenance are currently beyond our/their means, therefore before you look at salary caps and playing staff requirements, expenditure on maintaining the stadium needs addressed.
However am I not correct in saying the ground and the football club are separate entities? Therefore are the ground and the football club both up for sale? or is it the case of looking for a benefactor to come in and invest in an ongoing business or businesses.
Surely some sort of communication on the club website is required to clear up the conflicting articles from last week and let the supporters know exactly what the club/stadium position is, before any fire sale of players or sale of assets. |
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red zebra
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2598
Location: Whaur the bridies are
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Gary, you mention poor financial planning, but that is not just the Rovers, it is endemic throughout Scottish football and one of the reasons the likes of Billy Bowie, Jim McMahon, Rob Wilson, John Needham and others have never voted in a bigger league, without the 4 OF games every season, these guys don't have a sustainable business plan. As the saying goes, Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
I agree to an extent that you cannot run a football club like any other business, any club needs huge investment in the first place to get it to a position of success, that investment then needs to be continued at high levels to sustain that success however, there has to be a level of business acumen amongst the people who run the club in the first place. John Sim is probably the most accomplished man in terms of business acumen that we have had for a long time, no doubt he has other flaws, but he sees the way forward and tells it the way it is.
Folks who invest large sums of money into football clubs do it for two reasons, they either love the club with all their being or they are in it for the kudos success brings on a personal (or business) level, no one invests in a football club expecting to get their money back, it is just the wrong sort of business for that.
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Gary Parker
Moderator
Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 1779
Location: About half way between the place I was and the place I intend to be
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| red zebra wrote: | Gary, you mention poor financial planning, but that is not just the Rovers, it is endemic throughout Scottish football and one of the reasons the likes of Billy Bowie, Jim McMahon, Rob Wilson, John Needham and others have never voted in a bigger league, without the 4 OF games every season, these guys don't have a sustainable business plan. As the saying goes, Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
I agree to an extent that you cannot run a football club like any other business, any club needs huge investment in the first place to get it to a position of success, that investment then needs to be continued at high levels to sustain that success however, there has to be a level of business acumen amongst the people who run the club in the first place. John Sim is probably the most accomplished man in terms of business acumen that we have had for a long time, no doubt he has other flaws, but he sees the way forward and tells it the way it is.
Folks who invest large sums of money into football clubs do it for two reasons, they either love the club with all their being or they are in it for the kudos success brings on a personal (or business) level, no one invests in a football club expecting to get their money back, it is just the wrong sort of business for that. |
Totally agree, its endemic. Thats why we need to have it properly regulated top to bottom. Spend what you earn, invest in bringing through your own players, accept that every club in this country bar (mostly) the ugly sisters is a selling club and cut your cloth accordingly, the better you do at that, the better you can sustainably do on the pitch. Its all well and good saying "if we just go for promotion, we'll be OK" each year, but it never works out that way. |
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Strathallan Rover
Joined: 29 Nov 2014
Posts: 651
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Parker wrote: | | red zebra wrote: | Gary, you mention poor financial planning, but that is not just the Rovers, it is endemic throughout Scottish football and one of the reasons the likes of Billy Bowie, Jim McMahon, Rob Wilson, John Needham and others have never voted in a bigger league, without the 4 OF games every season, these guys don't have a sustainable business plan. As the saying goes, Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
I agree to an extent that you cannot run a football club like any other business, any club needs huge investment in the first place to get it to a position of success, that investment then needs to be continued at high levels to sustain that success however, there has to be a level of business acumen amongst the people who run the club in the first place. John Sim is probably the most accomplished man in terms of business acumen that we have had for a long time, no doubt he has other flaws, but he sees the way forward and tells it the way it is.
Folks who invest large sums of money into football clubs do it for two reasons, they either love the club with all their being or they are in it for the kudos success brings on a personal (or business) level, no one invests in a football club expecting to get their money back, it is just the wrong sort of business for that. |
Totally agree, its endemic. Thats why we need to have it properly regulated top to bottom. Spend what you earn, invest in bringing through your own players, accept that every club in this country bar (mostly) the ugly sisters is a selling club and cut your cloth accordingly, the better you do at that, the better you can sustainably do on the pitch. Its all well and good saying "if we just go for promotion, we'll be OK" each year, but it never works out that way. |
Agree. The problem with Scottish football and probably football in most countries is, every club looks after themselves. Also,where clubs go wrong is supporting full-time football outwith the SPL on attendances that are simply insufficient. Teams were part-time for years and never experienced such financial hardship. We hit financial trouble this time in '98 when it was obvious we were never going to be promoted with a completely full-time squad on Premier League wages and to be honest,we have never recovered. |
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TxRover
Joined: 02 Jun 2018
Posts: 3508
Location: North Texas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Parker wrote: | | Totally agree, its endemic. Thats why we need to have it properly regulated top to bottom. Spend what you earn, invest in bringing through your own players, accept that every club in this country bar (mostly) the ugly sisters is a selling club and cut your cloth accordingly, the better you do at that, the better you can sustainably do on the pitch. Its all well and good saying "if we just go for promotion, we'll be OK" each year, but it never works out that way. |
New we’re talking…not a salary cap, but spending regulation. You want to spend 50% of the player budget on Willie Broon, go right ahead, but you have to pay the entire rest of the team from the other 50%. Probably a small wiggle percentage, derived from financials, but something to keep things rational
Next we need to redo the payout structure. There is no reason the 1st place team should make not only nearly 3 times the 12th place team (£3.5m vs £1.2m) but nearly 78 times the 42nd place team (0.18% of the pot, or about £45,000)…and that ignores the fact the OF get a cool £1.5m sponsorship cash in addition. (note, these are the most recent numbers I could find, and might be slightly low)
If instead they payout was a bit more even…call it 45% to Premiership, 30% to Championship, 15% to League One and 10% to League Two…the leagues would be more competitive. |
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Neil M
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2590
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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It was a terrible timing to make this ambiguous announcement. The club wants to sell half-season-tickets, game tickets, attract donations, new players ,maybe extend the contracts of some existing players and even find a suitable buyer. Downscaling would decrease the value, not least if we are weaker after the January-window closes.
While it's good for fans to be updated, I'm not sure that was ever the intention. Just extremely bad PR and marketing IMO.
We are seventh in the league with the players we have! They could have waited to see what offers came in, if they came in and IF we get past Linlithgow Rose (bigger IF now than before) who we might get next in the cup. Instead, they seem to be panicking - advertising desperation and risking inviting in barely accepable offers - from a sellers perpective. Add to that, more players might now WANT to leave. Heaven forbid our closest rivals snap up our best players for less than we paid for worse players. The club might at least have secured safely from relegation first. If Arbroath and Hamilton start beating us, staying up is by no means a given! Then what for the £3m price tag? |
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red zebra
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2598
Location: Whaur the bridies are
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TxRover wrote: | | Gary Parker wrote: | | Totally agree, its endemic. Thats why we need to have it properly regulated top to bottom. Spend what you earn, invest in bringing through your own players, accept that every club in this country bar (mostly) the ugly sisters is a selling club and cut your cloth accordingly, the better you do at that, the better you can sustainably do on the pitch. Its all well and good saying "if we just go for promotion, we'll be OK" each year, but it never works out that way. |
New we’re talking…not a salary cap, but spending regulation. You want to spend 50% of the player budget on Willie Broon, go right ahead, but you have to pay the entire rest of the team from the other 50%. Probably a small wiggle percentage, derived from financials, but something to keep things rational
Next we need to redo the payout structure. There is no reason the 1st place team should make not only nearly 3 times the 12th place team (£3.5m vs £1.2m) but nearly 78 times the 42nd place team (0.18% of the pot, or about £45,000)…and that ignores the fact the OF get a cool £1.5m sponsorship cash in addition. (note, these are the most recent numbers I could find, and might be slightly low)
If instead they payout was a bit more even…call it 45% to Premiership, 30% to Championship, 15% to League One and 10% to League Two…the leagues would be more competitive. |
As for your first point have a look at these articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Financial_Fair_Play_Regulations and https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60895742
As for your other points, I refer you to my turkeys and Christmas analogy and as SR said, every club is out for themselves there is no bigger picture in their eyes, only survival.
I work in Arbroath, last year, with a group of part time players and shrewd loan deals, they had a great season and drew what for them was huge crowds. Their balance sheet on the back of a successful part time team has allowed them to make an awful lot of improvements to Gayfield and encourage investors and sponsorship deals further swelling their coffers. I know they have been guff first half of the season, but if we don't get our fingers out they will soon go past us because they have money to spend and can afford good loan players. Seems we can't unless we sell, and what happens when we get done by The Rose in the cup, the current incumbents don't seem to have a plan B currently.
Some of our board members should take a look at their abilities to operate a 21st century business and some should not be allowed near the media!
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Vinnie
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 8223
Location: None Of Your Business
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Alex Penman and Friends match sponsors tonight
Am I reading too much into that?  
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TxRover
Joined: 02 Jun 2018
Posts: 3508
Location: North Texas, USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| red zebra wrote: | As for your first point have a look at these articles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Financial_Fair_Play_Regulations and https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60895742
As for your other points, I refer you to my turkeys and Christmas analogy and as SR said, every club is out for themselves there is no bigger picture in their eyes, only survival.
I work in Arbroath, last year, with a group of part time players and shrewd loan deals, they had a great season and drew what for them was huge crowds. Their balance sheet on the back of a successful part time team has allowed them to make an awful lot of improvements to Gayfield and encourage investors and sponsorship deals further swelling their coffers. I know they have been guff first half of the season, but if we don't get our fingers out they will soon go past us because they have money to spend and can afford good loan players. Seems we can't unless we sell, and what happens when we get done by The Rose in the cup, the current incumbents don't seem to have a plan B currently.
Some of our board members should take a look at their abilities to operate a 21st century business and some should not be allowed near the media! |
That is exactly what I was suggesting. Your other point is equally valid, but misses the point that Arbroath’s current success is likely as transitory as past Raith successes have been. Things will slump and off we go again…
Last edited by TxRover on Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scotty
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 9065
Location: Almost Dysart.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gary Parker"] | Strathallan Rover wrote: | | Long time fan wrote: | | Perhaps this whole investment required situation ........ |
Disagree with this last part, break even or profit in the championship is not unattainable if clubs live within their means, the whole speculate to accumulate nonsense is what gets them to this position in the first place.
Every few years we hear "a good cup run will make all the difference" or "if we can sell a player, we'll be ok" its just poor financial planning. We're a small club with a pretty weak (poor) average home attendance, even trying to be full time and competing with larger budgets is always going to put us in a defecit, it has to change.
The amount of money squandered last season is almost criminal, an absolute shocking return on investment from all of those in charge. Financial regulation is needed in football and strict salary caps, with massive penalties against those in charge for breaching them. This whole living on speculation and hope has to stop. |
Not (as you intimated above) if you go out and spend a kings ransom on a player like DG.
McGlynn gets flack for selecting the worst possible signing target in my supporting life and rightly so, but its was the 3/5 of the board who green-lighted the signing and agreed a £50,000 fee and a 2.5 year contract on over £1k a week for a 33 year old player who was untested (recently) at the level we were at and was expected to score goals in the SPL. We will never know how the deal was settled or indeed the true cost to the Football club but it's definitely a factor in our current position.
If we are in the ***** financially it's because one of the best accountant's Kirkcaldy has ever produced has made us so, not just the on field poor decisions but things like tens of thousands spent on useless Portacabins etc. Money which could have been far better allotted.
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