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stan drew rover
Joined: 05 Jun 2017
Posts: 773
Location: Work it out!
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:10 am Post subject: John & Paul vs Jimmy & Martin |
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Following on from the Morton match thread, we might not win any national trophies any time soon (except for maybe the Challenge Cup), and we ain't gonna win the Championship this time round either.....
BUT, I am now coming to the opinion that John McGlynn and Paul Smith are now AT LEAST on a par with Sir James of Nicholl and Martin Harvey - in that our current management team have brought us out of the doldrums twice, and neither time did their predecessors leave them the kind of building blocks that Mr Connor left for JN. Anyone care to agree or disagree?
Sorry - can a moderator place this thread somewhere other than Match Talk? Ta! |
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Castle
Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Posts: 4773
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: |
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McGlynn and Smith have done a fantastic job this season and but for Hearts being in the league we'd be all getting incredible excited now about our first proper tilt at the championship title since 2011. However you are saying that they are at LEAST level with Nicholl and Harvey which hints at them maybe even being ahead of them and I can't support that view.
Yes all sorts of things came together just at the right time for Jimmy Nic, the biggest not being Frank Connor's legacy, but the board agreeing to finance full time football (at least in my opinion). Plenty of managers have taken over clubs with good squads and utterly failed to drive that team forward or in some cases regressed them (looking at you Davie Moyes). Jimmy Nic though added players of the calibre of Hetherston, Brewster and many others. Off the top of my head I think maybe only two players from the Coca-Cola Cup win would have played under Frank Connor, at least in first team matches.
If in four months time we find ourselves celebrating promotion to the Premier then maybe I'll reassess my ranking. Right now Nicholl and Harvey are way out in front and it will take something quite special for any other management duo to overtake them but I sincerely hope McGlynn and Smith do.
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Neil M
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2426
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Stan Drew Rover - It's a very tricky one to gauge. First and foremost, I am thinking that both the top-league and the second top league are tougher now than they were then. I don't know quite how to define that, but, the likes of
Livvy, St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Motherwell learn to punch well above their weight and all become survival experts. You then get some of the wealthier clubs - the likes of Hibs, Hearts and Dundee United getting complacent and ending up in the 2nd-top league, sometimes for seasons on end. In a nutshell, it seems harder for clubs like us to get into the top-league and stay there now than it was, in the '90s. Stats would suggest that it is also harder for bigger clubs, who get relegated, to go back up again in one season.
For me, Messrs McGlynn and Smudger, unlike Ray Mckinnon, are consistent and unlike Jimmy Nic and Martin Harvey, have turned things around in record time. I doubt if the team that we have at the moment would worry the Old Firm, or top Premiership clubs too much, but a huge amount has been achieved with them in a short time. I wouldn't say that McGlynn and Smudger have surpassed, or even equalled Jimmy Nic and Martin Harvey's concrete achievements just yet, in terms of what they have achieved. That said, if things continue the way that they are, I think that, given time, they absolutely have the potentional to do so!
Castle - Note sure that we need to look too far beyond the walls of Starks Park for managers that have turned great squads into duds!  |
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Northern_Rover
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 2666
Location: Granite City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Always wary of making comparisons like this because there are numerous factors that are unique to circumstances of the time. Jimmy as a manager in his own right has done very little of note since his time with us.
One thing I like about John's current stint is that he has come back a different manager with different things in his locker helped no doubt by his experience and jobs between his two stints.
I doubt any club of our stature will ever emulate what Jimmy and Martin achieved mainly because of ths way the game has changed. |
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Franco
Joined: 10 Oct 2019
Posts: 1023
Location: kirkcaldy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I assume that you are posing this as a serious question , worthy of debate, SDR.
However, as at 7/02/2021 it's a no-brainer for me in favour of Jimmy Nic and Martin.
Hang on a few years , once we come to the end of the second JMcG and Smudger reign
and, perhaps (who knows ) you can ask it again.
Personally, I doubt if valid judgements can be made where different eras are involved,
but, certainly, it is surprising to attempt to compare Completed Works with a work-in-progress.
Perhaps you are attempting to rouse those silent readers (to whom Cuparman likes to refer) and get them to become active posters , by providing a controversial view ?( Or is it the younger members who don't post?)
Last edited by Franco on Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stan drew rover
Joined: 05 Jun 2017
Posts: 773
Location: Work it out!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Northern_Rover wrote: | Always wary of making comparisons like this because there are numerous factors that are unique to circumstances of the time. Jimmy as a manager in his own right has done very little of note since his time with us.
One thing I like about John's current stint is that he has come back a different manager with different things in his locker helped no doubt by his experience and jobs between his two stints.
I doubt any club of our stature will ever emulate what Jimmy and Martin achieved mainly because of ths way the game has changed. |
NR's last point is valid - but that's really for another discussion. The game has changed hugely in the past twenty years - just as people were saying 20 years agon about the twenty before that. As a measure, do you think that a 21st century Rovers team could go to Munich and lose by the odd goal, having led at half-time? Thought not.
But that is not to say that our currently-developing team cannot emulate the mid-90s side. The measure in terms of trophies, Europe, fincancial clout, whatever, is very different - but in relative terms, perhaps we could call it 'fan satisfaction', comparisons are possible
So, my discussion point is to try to make the comparison within our own realm, if you like, given the similar backdrop of a provincial Scottish team/club, with limited resources, an average-sized fanbase - and given that Jimmy & Martin on the one hand, and John & Paul on the other, had the same resources to use, and the same fan base to satisfy.... |
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stan drew rover
Joined: 05 Jun 2017
Posts: 773
Location: Work it out!
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Franco wrote: | I assume that you are posing this as a serious question , worthy of debate, SDR.
However, as at 7/02/2021 it's a no-brainer for me in favour of Jimmy Nic and Martin.
Hang on a few years , once we come to the end of the second JMcG and Smudger reign
and, perhaps (who knows ) you can ask it again.
Personally, I doubt if valid judgements can be made where different eras are involved,
but, certainly, it is surprising to attempt to compare Completed Works with a work-in-progress.
Perhaps you are attempting to rouse those silent readers (to whom Cuparman likes to refer) and get them to become active posters , by providing a controversial view ?( Or is it the younger members who don't post?)
(Incidentally, I would have expected to find this topic in the General Forum 🤔?) |
On one point, you're right, Franco - it would be good to have more posters contributing to debates, and topics like this would encourage them, I hope.
But on the other, I don't think my view is controversial at all - I'd expect to find others agreeing in reasonable numbers. Why?
First, your point regarding a Completed Works vs Work-in-Progress doesn't work for me. Wider point - when is a Works such as football management ever Completed? It could be argued that Sir Alex Ferguson's is the only example in moden times in that he retired....
But back to us, Jimmy & Martin left our club first time round for Millwall in February 1996. Was their work completed because we'd won a cup, played in Europe and sat 6th in the Premier League? Second time round, Jimmy with Alex Smith were far less successful - indeed, it could be argued that the team went backwards during that second spell. And, of course, that second spell could never be described as a Completed Works.
John's first stint included a Scottish Cup Semi, and a good tilt at promotion thwarted by unfair forces from the Dark Side. That first spell on its own might get him into our top 5 managers of all-time, but wouldn't have him top the charts.
But to now come back and, within two years, be well on the way to repeating the feat (or even bettering it)..... well, in my book, that makes the achievement comparison valid.
That said, you're right we are still a work in progress - and so I can understand the point of view that says "Nicholl and Harvey still first, but ask me again in six months or this time next year...." |
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Neil M
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2426
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Let's not forget, Jimmy & Martin (earlier on) and John and Paul have one thing in common - the backing of a competent board! |
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Franco
Joined: 10 Oct 2019
Posts: 1023
Location: kirkcaldy
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Reluctant to respond to your latest post, SDR, as I'd rather give others a chance to add their thoughts!
However, to explain re Completed Works ,the Completed/Complete Works of The Beatles do not
include the music of Wings, John and Yoko , the Traveling Wilburys etc .
The comparison you are making is titled as above and so eg Jimmy Nic with anyone else does not form part of the debate!
It would be great, just great, if The Rovers under JMcG and Smudger continue to progress and rival the success of
our glory years of the Nineties and the debate of the GOAT could begin in earnest!
PS Perhaps you or Cuparman or the Moderators should start another thread, in the General Forum, requesting reasons why many readers are reluctant to post? |
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StarksBarmy
Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 3786
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Don’t really want to compare. Promotion (twice) to top flight. We won a major trophy (it meant more back then too with Euro qualification involved) We were a Rougier sitter away from taking the tie level over in Munich too remember! It’s no wonder Sir Jimmy is classed as a legend.
What I would like to comment on is the evolution in J McGlynn’s tactics/style. 1st time round was attritional but effective. When he left it was considered by most that things had run its course... When he returned I expected more of the same which was fine as we needed consolidation and OUT of League One but John + Paul have returned as a better version with more strings to their bow. Total credit to themselves and our club. Where their success takes us? We are yet to discover... |
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red zebra
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2488
Location: Whaur the bridies are
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Apples and oranges, different times and a very different game these days. Both pairings offered levels of success. McGlynn Mk1 would not have got us where we are today, I think the best thing he did was going to Celtic and immersing himself in Rodgers philosophies and being given the opportunity to visit so many clubs and see what they did.
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Castle
Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Posts: 4773
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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I just thought he had a scouting position at Celtic
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badpress139
Joined: 19 May 2015
Posts: 2312
Location: Glenrothes
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Castle wrote: | | I just thought he had a scouting position at Celtic |
I was. But along with that he would be involved in team meetings. |
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Neil M
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 2426
Location: Aberdeen
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Definitely a more exciting manager this time around. It shows that, unlike many managers, he does keep on learning! Like Jimmy Nic, he has been at Starks Park Twice and like Jimmy Nic, he has had a soft spot for the Rovers even when he's been elsewhere. |
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CALDERON
Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 1714
Location: Aberdeenshire
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Castle wrote: | | I just thought he had a scouting position at Celtic |
He was their opposition scout, so would analyse how upcoming opponents played etc (I think) so I guess would need to have some kind of working knowledge of how Celtic would set themselves up.
It's an incredibly difficult comparison. What Jimmy Nic achieved will never be matched. No matter where you go and who you meet, when people find out who you support they mention the cup win and Munich. We have memories that most clubs at our level have and never will experience.
Personally, I hold Mcglynn up there with Nicholl. You have to consider the state things were in before he became appointed (both times). His work ethic was always famed, but the way he has changed his managerial style is brilliant. The oldest adage of football management is "never go back".
I didn't personally want Mcglynn to ever come back as I always thought that ship had sailed, but a few years of Locke, Hughes and Smith really hit home how good we had it.
What Mcglynn and Smith do above all else, is put a team on the park who look as though they care as much about the Rovers as we do. Give me that over the likes of Declan Mcmanus, Barry Mckay, Bobby Barr, Scott Roberts, Kevin Mchattie and Jordan Thomson. Any day of the week.
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