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Goodbye to plastic?
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Castle



Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Posts: 4921

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:11 pm    Post subject: Goodbye to plastic? Reply with quote

Does anyone know the definitive rules on this then? It seems that the momentum to outlaw artificial pitches in the top flight is gaining momentum. Is it as simple that if eleven out of twelve clubs in the premier vote to punt them then that it as far playing on them goes in the elite league?
If they do go down that route where would that leaves us? I mean if we got promoted this year then we'd obviously rip up the carpet and lay down turf though that would obviously massively impact our budget but what if we don't go up? Do we keep the plastic until we do eventually, if ever get promoted , or do we keep the artificial even when we need to replace it in a few seasons time?
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TxRover



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be foolish to move to replace the plastic right now. It is most likely any “prohibition” of artificial pitches would be passed with a phase-in period, so as to allow planning and installation. Certainly the playing surface at Stark’s Park has a couple of years life left on it, so that allows the management team time to evaluate this threat and requirement.

I would suggest that it’s not even clear the requirement will pass, as Dundee’s recent travails with a natural pitch show there are potential issues. The current 2024/2025 advisory letter, issued at the beginning of the season to advise HL and LL teams of the requirements to become SPFL members, does not contain a prohibition of artificial pitches, and simply requires FIFA Quality Pro standards (for those installed since 2015) be met, and approval be received from the SPFL. The SPFL’s own language thus prohibits a change for the Premiership to prohibit artificial surfaces any earlier than 2025/2026. The “standard” language from this letter also mentions transition periods and board approval for meeting standards.
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Castle



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting info Tx. Is it though up to the Premier league clubs to set the requirements for their league or is up to the whole of the spfl?
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embow
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we were to get promoted then you need to add on costs of VAR and undersoil heating. I presume that the heating wouldn't be feasible if we stayed with the plastic even for one season to see if we would be good enough to stay in the top tier. Mind you Killie and Livi still use plastic and I presume will also use undersoil heating. Maybe not?
It's a total financial minefield to be honest.
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Cuparman



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retrograde step imo.
Methinks the better consistency you get through plastic is far better than pure grass which changes with rainfall, snow, ice, divots.

IF and it is a big IF, is if all clubs could actually afford grass in the first place.
Rich clubs such as those in the English premier league might be able to afford the ground staff and equipment required, I doubt smaller gated clubs can/ could keep grass in near perfect conditions all year round.

Also, how many games get cancelled due to being water logged etc.
Clubs would also ( I think) lose the revenue they get from people using our plastic pitches.

Personally, putting that 5 Gen pitch down was one of the best things the club has done. Rolling Eyes Confused
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StarksBarmy



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

embow wrote:
If we were to get promoted then you need to add on costs of VAR and undersoil heating. I presume that the heating wouldn't be feasible if we stayed with the plastic even for one season to see if we would be good enough to stay in the top tier. Mind you Killie and Livi still use plastic and I presume will also use undersoil heating. Maybe not?
It's a total financial minefield to be honest.


Under soil heating isn’t used on artificial turf. One of the main plus points for artificial is that 99/100 the pitch is playable regardless of the weather conditions.

I can get the views of the sides not wanting artificial surfaces, some just aren’t very good but I feel ours has been excellent. The fact you forget the surface is artificial most of the time says plenty.

Maybe the quality and upkeep of artificial surfaces needs to be monitored as opposed to banned?

The cost of installing and maintaining grass again doesn’t bear thinking about.

Our best bet is Livi not being relegated, long shot though!
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TxRover



Joined: 02 Jun 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castle wrote:
Interesting info Tx. Is it though up to the Premier league clubs to set the requirements for their league or is up to the whole of the spfl?


It’s a mess. In 2013, when the SPL and SFL merged to form the SPFL, the basic result was a top level that required 11 of 12 votes to change rules impacting them.

Rule C25 excludes promotion or playoff spot except when a waiver, as needed, via Rule D6 has been granted…and then suggests the next qualifying team takes the non-qualifying teams place. The D6 wavier can cover nearly all stadium requirements, and the Board has absolute discretion, indicating no fixed period to comply, just what the Board decides.

This takes us to H, where H4 prohibits artificial pitches, unless…and outlines various requirements (FIFA Quality Pro or the latest new requirement) and references H7, which can mandate improvements. H8 again invokes absolute discretion and no fixed time period for compliance.

Still no reference to the magical 11-1 voting requirement. The best references I can find for the vote requirements go back to SPL/SFL days, with the SPL requiring 11 of 12 for changes and the SFL requiring 8 of 10 in a given division for changes or 75% of all 30 teams for broader changes. This was seemingly carried over, as that’s what was needed for the five sub rule adoption. Now, we do know the SPFL Board has the theoretical power to vote in a change over the teams votes too…so I’d love to find the rules somewhere.

Meanwhile, over to the SFA Rules…which only specify, at most, 75% of members present voting yes to pass.
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Cuparman



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother in law is a Killy fan and according to him, their plastic pitch is gonna get lifted but not for at least another season.

Apparently the premier league need a minimum of 11-1 in favour before plastic is banned from SPL and notice has to be given to allow the two ( Killy+ livi ) to change there’s. IF we went up it would make it difficult to get the ban through.
If pitches were consistent in their reaction to ball movement, then surely that is a good thing.
Grass pitches vary across the land. There are numerous types of grass, and length of grass and thickness as well.
A specific standard of plastic pitches would help as different generations are different in their characteristics.
Me ( and the wife) VOTE NO......they can get tae. Wink
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Wolfman Jack



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StarksBarmy wrote:
embow wrote:
If we were to get promoted then you need to add on costs of VAR and undersoil heating. I presume that the heating wouldn't be feasible if we stayed with the plastic even for one season to see if we would be good enough to stay in the top tier. Mind you Killie and Livi still use plastic and I presume will also use undersoil heating. Maybe not?
It's a total financial minefield to be honest.


Under soil heating isn’t used on artificial turf. One of the main plus points for artificial is that 99/100 the pitch is playable regardless of the weather conditions.

I can get the views of the sides not wanting artificial surfaces, some just aren’t very good but I feel ours has been excellent. The fact you forget the surface is artificial most of the time says plenty.

Maybe the quality and upkeep of artificial surfaces needs to be monitored as opposed to banned?

The cost of installing and maintaining grass again doesn’t bear thinking about.

Our best bet is Livi not being relegated, long shot though!


I spoke with the sadly departed Dave Marshall at East Fife, he told me there is a chemical application akin to anti-freeze that can be applied down to IIRC -4 deg C, aside from cost, it drains away and would have to be re-applied.
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Murray1209



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have thought if the spfl are telling you to rip the turf up then they have to cover the cost also if it is a rule I think you should get at least 1 season to see how you fare first
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wellyboot



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The cost of VAR outweighed by the lack of postponed matches due to having artificial surface?
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TxRover



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cuparman wrote:
A specific standard of plastic pitches would help as different generations are different in their characteristics.


There is, “FIFA Quality Pro” is the current required standard, since 2015.

https://www.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/standards/football-turf/fifa-quality-programme-for-football-turf
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Specky Ginger



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cuparman's first post pretty much nails it for me.

It's a sad indictment when the media fawn over the words of a thug like Duncan Ferguson and a two bob chancer like Rodgers who wanted to speak about Killie's artificial pitch to deflect from his own team's shortcomings in Europe, and would be back down the road to England in the unlikely event of him being offered another Premier League job.

It's utterly despicable for people to say they should be banned from the top flight as they pose an injury risk - aside from the fact there's no real evidence to support this, are they really saying it's okay for players in the lower leagues to be exposed to the greater risk?
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embow
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Specky Ginger wrote:
Cuparman's first post pretty much nails it for me.

It's a sad indictment when the media fawn over the words of a thug like Duncan Ferguson and a two bob chancer like Rodgers who wanted to speak about Killie's artificial pitch to deflect from his own team's shortcomings in Europe, and would be back down the road to England in the unlikely event of him being offered another Premier League job.

It's utterly despicable for people to say they should be banned from the top flight as they pose an injury risk - aside from the fact there's no real evidence to support this, are they really saying it's okay for players in the lower leagues to be exposed to the greater risk?

Nailed it again SG👍👏👏
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Northern_Rover



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Specky Ginger wrote:

It's utterly despicable for people to say they should be banned from the top flight as they pose an injury risk - aside from the fact there's no real evidence to support this, are they really saying it's okay for players in the lower leagues to be exposed to the greater risk?


I'd be interested to see how our much maligned injury record stacks up pre and post plastic pitch era.
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